CAIN: ain’t no more Herman Cain for political media to beat on

Lead

Herman Cain has suspended his campaign.

By devoting extensive coverage seeking to humiliate Cain and to derail his candidacy, mainstream political media lost its way. It utterly failed  its fundamental role in American presidential politics to stay focused, and to adequately inform the American people about the issues of national concern on the business and affairs of the country, the presidency, and the Presidential candidates in the GOP race for the Republican nomination.

Media (Quote):

After Herman Cain suspended his presidential campaign, other Republican presidential hopefuls praised him for energizing conservative voters and wished him well.

Source:  Danny Yadron, “Former Rivals Praise Herman Cain,” WSJ WASHINGTON WIRE BLOG

Query

Please take a moment and reflect.

If you wish to comment, that would be appreciated. But if not, please just take a moment and think.

Set aside the fact that Herman Cain is a Republican, that he is black and that he is conservative. Just reflect that up to now, he was a candidate in America for the GOP nomination to run for President in Election 2012.

Whether you agreed or disagreed with his philosophy, viewpoints and politics; whether you would have voted for him or not; Herman had every right as an American citizen to enter upon the playing field; to compete in the game of Presidential politics with Mitt, Rick, Newt, Jon, Michelle and Ron and whoever else seeking to run for President; and, to engage in conversations about the business and affairs of the nation.

This is still the United States of America.

Every qualified man and woman still has an unfettered right under the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, to enter the race; to say whatever he or she wants to say; and, to do of course within reason whatever he or she wants to do to run for office; get his or her message out to the voters and seek the wins needed in the upcoming primary elections for GOP candidates who want to secure the nomination of the Republican Party, and run against Barack Obama in Election 2012 for President of the United States of America.

Whether Herman had $10 in the bank, or $10 Million, that was his fundamental right. And, it was taken from him.

How?

Not by the well-informed decision-making of voters at the ballot box.

But, essentially by the personal decisions of reporters, analysts, commentators, contributors, writers, editors and others in political media hot to trot about generating a torrent of media coverage concerning sex stories from three unhappy and unimportant women in the business and affairs of the nation anxious to tell their alleged stories from years gone by, but could never adequately explain why they wanted to tell their stories in the first place.

Who really cares, and in reality what difference should it have made to the state of the union and the presidency, what happened 14 years ago to the former National Restaurant Association staff employee who settled her claim, got paid, got another job, made another sexual harassment complaint and at least until one month ago was moving on with her life and career?

Who really cares, and in reality what difference should it have made to the state of the union and the presidency, what happened to the former applicant for a job at the NRA who did nothing and said nothing for all these years about an alleged sexual assault which took place 13 years ago?

Who really cares, and in reality what difference should it have made to the state of the union and the presidency, what allegedly has happening for 13 years  with a consenting women who allegedly was involved a love affair?

Mainstream political media should have been disciplined and stayed focused on the issues affecting the state of the union by keeping Americans informed about those issues and the positions of the GOP candidates on those issues. Just about every media outlet in the nation, however, got off mission,  went rogue, and wasted tons of ink and air time on what amounted to tabloid trivia.

It was mainstream political media coverage in prime time, to use the words of Ron Paul from another context: “beneath the office of the presidency.”

That’s our take, what’s yours?

Scandal still pays well; any bids out there for the stories of Cain’s accusers?

The great American past time, scandal, still pays and pays well.

Take for example Conrad Murray, the doctor convicted of man-slaughtering Michael Jackson. Murray apparently took in $300,000.00 to tell his story,

The Conrad Murray documentary Michael Jackson and the Doctor: A Fatal Friendship is set to air tonight on MSNBC. Murray was allegedly paid $300,000 by NBCU to appear in the film. According to Radar Online, none of that money will go to Murray himself. Most of it is for his lawyers and some will go to his girlfriend.

Source of Quote: Matthew Fleischer, “NBCUniversal, MSNBC and Other Media Outlets Sued by Conrad Murray Creditors,” MEDIABISTRO.COM.

Karen Kraushaar and Sharon Bialek, and perhaps others, are on the sidelines for the moment. They want to host a “joint press conference” of Herman Cain’s accusers so that they can present what they call their “Body of Evidence” about  allegations of Cain’s sexual misconduct. But, they don’t want to meet the press now.

> Why the wait?

> Could there be a bidding war going on behind closed doors by various media organizations for exclusive rights to their stories?

> Is America on hold until they net the highest bid?

After all it will take a boat load of money to pay their lawyer bills if they get sued!

> And, what is the fair market value for “The Girls of the NRA” to tell their stories yet again if it is the case that a bidding war is taking place?

Conrad Murray’s story fetched $300,000.00. I don’t even want to speculate how many more zeros they could get especially if there are on the stage together when they tell their stories again

Of course, they may not want any money at all. That’s what they have said so far.

They simply may want another chance to fullfill what they feel is their public duty to present their stories again to the American people.

Maybe America will listen the next time around, and knock Herman Cain out of the GOP nomination sweepstakes for President.

Who knows? We’ll wait and see!

Cain accuser wants a joint press conference; a “Body of Evidence” drama in real time

Madonna: she starred in a steamy erotic thriller: “Body of Evidence.”

Karen Kraushaar: she is the second Herman Cain harassment accuser to go public.

Kraushaar, a director of communications, called for a joint press conference for all the accusers so that, as she coined the phrase: ”all of these allegations could be reviewed as a collective body of evidence.”

Really-a collective “body of evidence?”

Curious: Did Kraushaar coin a sound bite for her going public press conference for the purpose of alluding to Madonna’s movie?

Roland Martin Reports (quote):

Karen Kraushaar, 55, an employee with the Treasury Department’s inspector general office, said she never wanted her name to be made public as one of Cain’s accusers. But a news organization published her name Tuesday and she now says she is ready to go before cameras.

Source of Quote: ROLAND MARTIN REPORTS

Martin included a quote by Kraushaar that she wants a “joint press conference” for all of Cain’s accusers:

“I am interested in a joint press conference for all the women where we would all be together with our attorneys and all of these allegations could be reviewed as a collective body of evidence,” Kraushaar told The Washington Post.

Source of Quote: James V. Grimaldi, “Karen Kraushaar now wants to go public with other women with allegations against Herman Cain,”   THE WASHINGTON POST

 MJB’s Take

> The notion that all of Cain’s accusers will be center stage in front of the TV cameras and the media, to tell their stories at a “joint press conference” sound like a script for the high drama stuff in film and on reality TV.
 
> But what readers may not realize is that Kraushaar’s choice of words may not have been just conversation. Kraushaar, who has a graduate degree in communications, and who works as a communications director, may have used “collective body of evidence” intentionally picking up the title of a controversial movie starring Madonna: “Body of Evidence.”
 
> Madonna’s movie was not just some run of the mill flick. As noted by WIKIPEDIA: 
 
Body of Evidence is a 1993 erotic thriller produced by Dino De Laurentiis and distributed by Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer. It was directed by Uli Edel and stars Madonna and Willem Dafoe, with Joe MantegnaAnne ArcherJulianne Moore and Jürgen Prochnow in supporting roles.
 
> Kraushaar’s words, “body of evidence,” were expressed in the context of suggesting that the highly publicized sexual harassment allegations against Herman Cain be retold again at a joint press conference. It may not be coincidental that her words allude to a controversial film starring Madonna, an erotic thriller, the plot of which is described by WIKIPEDIA as follows:
 
 An older man, Andrew Marsh, is seen viewing a homemade pornographic tape. It is later revealed the man died from complications stemming from erotic asphyxiation. The main suspect is the woman having sex with Marsh in the film, Rebecca Carlson (Madonna), who after being charged with murder is represented by lawyer Frank Dulaney (Willem Dafoe).
 
> Political media characterizes Herman Cain’s campaign as an “art project.”
 
> Is this business about a joint press conference for all the accusers, so that the sexual harassment allegations are viewed in the court of public opinion as, in the words of Kraushaar, a collective body of evidence, a well scripted ”art project,” that is, a tactical political attack dramatizing the allegations so as to invite comments by political media, hopefully with allusions to the steamy movie, an erotic thriller, in order to destroy Cain’s character and influence voters to reject his candidacy?
 
> Oh no, that can’t be so!!
 
> And, who devised this political strategy-the accuser, her lawyer, a media organization or a competitor?
 

Cain: Accuser No. 4 news conference coverage bags over over 24T comments from Huff Post online community

Huff Post Headline 

Sharon Bialek, Herman Cain Accuser, Speaks Alongside Attorney Gloria Allred At Press Conference (VIDEO)

See VIDEO: Linked in Huff Post: Uploaded in Sidebar.

Huff Post Article (quote):

Bialek said the alleged incident in question occurred down the street from the NRA headquarters. Describing what happened, she said, “Instead of going into the offices, he suddenly reached over and put his hand on my leg, up my skirt, and towards my genitals.” She recalled that when she protested the advances, Cain said, “You want a job, right?”

Bialek alleged that Cain also “grabbed [her] head and brought it towards his crotch.” She said that she was “shocked” by the behavior.

Link to Story: HUFFINGTON POST

MJB’s Take

> An accuser has come forward, and has spoken at a press conference. Of ourse, she will make the rounds of the morning Talk TV shows.

> Has the saga now become a turning point in Herman Cain’s campaign for the GOP Presidential nomination?

> Will the coverage influence a sharp dron for Cain in the polls?

> Can Cain win the Iowa Primary?

> Or, is he done?

Cain saga continues: Accuser No. 4 goes public, celebrity lawyer, news conference and all

Well, well, well-over the last 14 years, and for the last two weeks when the accusations initially broke and generated a tsunami of online buzz and mainstream coverage by political media, who knew other than the purported accuser, and when did they know, about the alleged incident?

If it was known, then it’s odd that it took so long for the accusations to go public, and to go public now!

Round 4: In a made for TV televised news conference, celebrity lawyer and all, accuser No. 4 goes public with her sexual harassment, and for this round + sexual assault, accusations against Herman Cain.

Michael D. Shear and Trip Gabriel, “Accuser Details  Lewd Behavior by Cain,” in THE CAUCUS, the politics and government blog on nytimes.com, write (quote):

A Chicago woman alleged on Monday that Herman Cain grabbed her in a sexually aggressive way when she sought his help after losing her job at the National Restaurant Association in the late 1990s.

Sharon Bialek, accompanied by the celebrity lawyer Gloria Allred, became the first woman to publicly accuse the presidential candidate of sexual harassment, saying that she wants to “give a voice” to other women who might have been harassed by Mr. Cain during his tenure at the association.

“I want you, Mr. Cain, to come clean,” Ms. Bialek, who said she was a Republican, told a packed news conference in New York City’s Friar Club. “Just admit what you did. Admit you were inappropriate to people, and then move forward.”

Text of Caucus Reader’s Comment

One of the readers, in Comment No. 14, reacted (quote):

By: Planet Earth

November 7th, 2011

3:13 pm

If all Sharon Bialek wants is for Herman Cain to “come clean”, than why is she hiring Gloria Allred….a worse opportunist than Alfred Sharpton. 

The media should be asking Bialek why she was fired, and why did she return to “seek employment”. I think she only returned to seek retribution by making things up. Now she just wants a book deal.

Source of Quotes: THE CAUCUS BLOG 

MJB’s Take

> To borrow a line: If it’s hard to believe, .  .  . then it’s unbelievable!” Read James LeBeau

> We’re now into week three with this stuff, so the Cain saga continues!

> What’s Next:  Next week, will the accusations move up a notch or two?

 

Sunday TV talk shows (11/16): Herman Cain’s harassment saga

POLITICO‘s Patrick Gavin, in TURN THE TABLE, a preview of the Sunday morning TV talk shows, talks to the major media talk show hosts about Herman Cain, the controversy concerning the sexual harassment accusations and the effect the saga will have in the upcoming GOP primary elections.

See VIDEO: Sidebar

It’s significant that Cain has maintained his standing in the polls under the weight of the negative publicity surrounding the accusations.

Also:  Jonathan Martin, “Herman Cain accuser attorney: Settlement dated 9/99, Kilgore signed,” Read POLITICO.COM  A 9/99 settlement? That’s spooky!

Herman Cain is on a roll with major media coverage, and has run the table this week on getting that coverage on all the major networks.

With the accuser declining to come forward, it looks like for now he will keep rolling and rolling along.

Forget the polls and deal with political reality: Cain’s gonna lose anyway! ala CBS News

As a contender for the GOP nomination, is Herman Cain finished?

One analysis by an experienced political writer for CBS News suggests that Cain is for all practical purposes a non entity in the race for the GOP nomination.

Brian Montopoli, in “Analysis: the Herman Cain sideshow,” writes (quote):

All over this website – all over every news website – you’ll find stories about Herman Cain and the Great Alleged Sexual Misconduct Imbroglio. In addition to detailing the latest revelations and the ugly finger pointing, many are asking: Is this story going to sink the front runner for the Republican presidential nomination?
 

It’s the wrong question. That’s because, no matter what the polls say, Herman Cain is not the front runner for the Republican presidential nomination. His candidacy is at best a long-shot and at worst a sideshow, a bit of late-fall entertainment before the serious business of electing a president begins in earnest. 

 

Source of Quote:  Read  CBS News PoliticalHotsheet Blog

Obviously, CBS News wants credit for calling the likely outcome of the Iowa Primary as of today, at least for Herman Cain’s candidacy, and to portray his candidacy as a lost cause.

Do you agree:

1.  Montopoli: Herman Cain is not “the front runner for the [GOP] Presidential nomination?”

Our Translation: Something’s wrong-the polls, particularly the recent ones, cannot possibly be right!

2.  Montopoli: Herman Cain’s candidacy is “at best a long-shot?”

Our Translation: There’s no such thing in Presidential politics as a low-budget grassroots campaign which warrants serious consideration. Cain’s campaign is a lost cause that’s clogging up the Internet and the airwaves, and, is soaking up pristine mainstream political media coverage when it’s apparent he’s not likely to win the GOP nomination anyway!

3. Montopoli: Herman Cain’s candidacy has become “at worst a sideshow?”

Our Translation: The Presidential election is the Super Bowl of elections in American politics!

So why is the pristine mainstream political media wasting valuable time, resources, talent, online content and airtime giving serious coverage to Cain, his show and his shoe string candidacy, which for all practical purposes have become national jokes, when it should be focusing on candidates who are real Presidential material, with highly credentialed campaign organizations, supported and endorsed by GOP stars and funded with serious political money!

Our Reaction: We understand your frustration.

Our Counsel: Don’t be quick to write him off now.

Our Take

> Sure, the prospect for Herman Cain winning the GOP nomination seems dismal because of his missteps, the sheer weight of the sexual harassment drama playing out in the media and other problems he’s been dealing with.

> But, if it turns out that the drama is no more than he said/she said incidents, with no intimate contact, and should Cain and his team stop making mistakes, then Cain could survive, get past the crush of the negative media coverage and position himself to be a winner!

>  Note: Surprise! Surprise! A poll was coincidentally reported today. One commentator observed [no, just believe it isn't so]:

The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey of Likely GOP Primary voters shows Cain with 26% of the vote over former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney’s 23%.

xx     xx     xx

While Cain’s edge over Romney is within the margin of error, this is the first time the former CEO has held any sort of lead in a national primary poll. Last month, Cain and Romney were tied at 29% each. In September, Cain picked up just seven percent (7%) of vote and Perry was the frontrunner.

The latest survey was conducted Wednesday night, after three full days of press coverage about the sexual harassment allegations against Cain.

Source of Quote:  The Daley Gator, “Cain Now Leads All GOP Candidates Nationally In Latest Poll – 11/03/11,” READ BLOG POST

Update/MSNBC VIDEO: [Uploaded in VODPOD  Sidebar (11-03-11] Lawrence O’Donnell, host of THE LAST WORD, discusses reported new details on the accusations against Cain. His guests are split on whether the saga will affect Cain with voters in the Iowa Primary.

In Closing

> Montopoli: You think you and your colleagues are working hard now!

> Should Cain survive and win the Iowa Primary, all of you will be working harder than any of you ever did or expected to do in your media  life!
 
> But, it can be fun. After all, MSNBC’s Lawrence O’Donnell is getting a thrill a minute talking about and trashing Herman Cain on THE LAST WORD!

Other Web Coverage

Accuser No. 3 rains on Cain’s campaign parade with sexual harassment allegations

 

Herman Cain  is in play now more than he ever was before.

Alleged victim and Accuser No. 3 rains on Herman Cain’s campaign parade with her accusations of sexual harassment.

Frank James, a seasoned political writer who hosts IT’S ALL POLITICS Blog for NPR wrote:

Herman Cain’s sexual harassment crisis worsened Wednesday with a third woman telling a news organization that he sexually harassed her when they both worked at the National Restaurant Association in the 1990s.

xx     xx     xx

According to the Associated Press, the third woman has asked that her name not be made public out of fear of retaliation.

But the story she told the news agency offered some of the sharpest details yet of Cain’s alleged actions when he served as the unpaid chair of the restaurant association from 1996 to 1999.

AP reported:

A third former employee says she considered filing a workplace complaint over what she considered aggressive and unwanted behavior by Herman Cain when she worked for the presidential candidate in the 1990s. She says the behavior included a private invitation to his corporate apartment.

She worked for the National Restaurant Association when he was its head. She told The Associated Press that Cain made sexually suggestive remarks or gestures about the same time that two co-workers had settled separate harassment complaints against him.

The employee described situations in which she said Cain told her he had confided to colleagues how attractive she was and invited her to his corporate apartment outside work. She spoke on condition of anonymity, saying she feared retaliation.

Cain’s campaign declined to comment.

 

Source of QuotesNPR IT’S ALL POLITICS BLOG

When will the rain of accusations stop?

The problems with Accuser No. 3 and her story are: (a) that she did not complain about the alleged harassment to the NRA when it happened; and (b) she does not want to reveal her identity.

Of course, as noted in the AP report sourced by James, Accuser No. 3 “offered some of the sharpest details yet of Cain’s alleged actions.” There’s no way to verify what she’s alleging. But yet, her accusations are getting coverage in mainstream political media!

What other mystery women will surface and leak their stories of alleged harassment to the media and get mainstream coverage?

At this rate, there could be unverifiable accusations from a slew of undisclosed women every day of the week against Herman Cain and anyone else  until the Iowa Primary!!

Is this what we expect as the best in political journalism from mainstream media?

             Lawyer Says Cain Violated Confidentiality Agreement on Sexual Harassment Settlement 

             (news.firedoglake.com)

Woman in Cain sexual harassment episode wants release to talk about it 15 years later-who’s kidding who?

Herman Cain’s sexual harassment episode is now becoming something of a media circus.

The new twist in the narrative is that one of the accusers wants to tell her story. The lead news report in the media coverage comes from The Washington Post.

In “Herman Cain’s accuser wants to tell her side of story, lawyer says,” Sandhya Somoashekhar and James v. Grimaldi write: 

A woman who accused Herman Cain of sexual harassment in the 1990s is ready for her story to come out, her lawyer said Tuesday, even as the Republican presidential hopeful spent a second day trying to quell the mounting controversy and explain his conflicting recollections of the matter.

Joel P. Bennett, the attorney for one of two women who made the claims against Cain, said Tuesday that his client is barred from publicly relating her side because of a nondisclosure agreement she signed upon leaving the National Restaurant Association, where Cain served as president from 1996 through 1999.

Source:  Read  WASHINGTON POST  STORY

Note two things.

First, the woman’s lawyer is talking, not her.  Second, he goes out of his way to emphasize that she is barred from talking because of a “nondisclosure agreement.”

Now ask yourself a simple question: if the nondisclosure agreement bars the employee from talking, why does it not also bar her lawyer from talking?

We now come to the icing on the cake. The lawyer apparently talked to POLITICO.

In his story, “Herman Cain accuser shouldn’t be kept silent, lawyer argues,” Jonathan Martin writes:

The attorney for one of the women who complained that she was sexually harassed by Herman Cain in the 1990′s will contact the National Restaurant Association’s general counsel Wednesday to request that the organization remove the non-disclosure language from the woman’s settlement.

“I’m going to ask him to send me something in writing which says that they’re waiving the relevant paragraphs of the 1999 settlement,” Joel Bennett, the attorney, told POLITICO in an interview Tuesday night.

Bennett said he no longer had possession of the settlement and that his client was to share her copy with him tomorrow. Once the longtime employment lawyer has the document, he said he’d contact Peter Kilgore, the general counsel for the restaurant association, and formally request that the confidentiality provision be changed.

Source:  Read  POLITICO STORY

Note three things.

First, the lawyer “will contact” the National Restaurant Association. The lawyer has talked to the media, but has not even contacted the NRA?

Second, the lawyer’s client, who claims to be a victim of sexual harassment, is asking her former employer to send “something in writing which says that they’re waiving” the nondisclosure agreement. Is he serious?

The lawyer wants the employer to send him a waiver of confidentiality so that the employee can talk and tell her story and, of course, keep the money she got for  signing that very confidentiality agreement 15 years ago. That’s absurd!

Third, and brace yourself, all this jawboning and the lawyer “no longer had possession of the agreement.” What!!! His client will bring him a copy of the agreement tomorrow? Get real!

No wonder Herman Cain and his campaign team seem to be cool under pressure.

This episode is evolving and becoming a joke.

Can Cain survive: POLITICO throws more fuel on media coverage fire engulfing him with sexual harassment accusations?

POLITICO’s  front page story posted by Alexander Burns (11/01/11), first written under the headline: ”Cain damage control adds fuel to fire,” throws more fuel on the media coverage fire engulfing Herman Cain with sexual harassment accusations!The flames of the fire and the political heat of the coverage are raging!

Will Cain’s storied Presidential election campaign for the GOP nomination go up in smoke before the Iowa Primary?

Can Herman Cain survive?

TODAY’S STORY

READ:   FRONT PAGE STORY

 
POLITICO’S PRIOR COVERAGE
 
VIDEO OF CAIN’S SPEECH
 
Related articles
 

 

FIRST UPDATE [11-01-11]

Law Professor William A. Jacobson, Cornell Law School, posted a hard-hitting critique of POLITICO.  On his blog LI-Legal Insurrection, Professor Jacobson wrote:

TEXT  FROM POST

The fragility of an insurgent campaign was revealed as Cain’s communications team and Cain himself seemed unable to find a quick footing in how to respond.  More to come, for sure, as there will be a drumbeat for release of the files relating to the complaints and  settlements.

xx   xx   xx

This is a taste of the medicine the mainstream media * * * has in store for the eventual Republican nominee.

Whatever the source of the tip, the presentation was rolled out by Politico in a fashion to do maximum damage to Cain.  The Sunday release was timed to be all over the media on Monday morning.  Jonathan Martin, the lead reporter on the story for Politico, even conducted an ambush interview with Cain shortly after the story broke, receiving a muddled response from Cain.

xx   xx   xx

END OF TEXT

READ:  JACOBSON’S BLOG POST

Has POLITICO upped the ante for the nature and tone of the media coverage candidates, especially Herman Cain, and their communications teams and strategists  should brace themselves for leaning forward during the remainder of the GOP Presidential nomination contest?

Until a GOP nominee is selected, should the field of media  play be captioned:

Political Media v. GOP Candidates?

 

Clarification of how Cain’s sexual harrasment accusations were resolved is needed

Herman Cain has been hit with sexual harassment accusations. From the media coverage  the incidents apparently happened about fifteen years ago. They allegedly involved two employees of the lobbying organization for which Cain served as CEO.

It’s remarkable the incidents have not come to light until now.

Cain was a candidate in 2004 for the U. S. Senate in Georgia. He was a radio talk host in Atlanta. He was very visible motivational speaker. And, for the last several  months he has been an outspoken and a somewhat controversial candidate for the GOP Presidential nomination.

Through all those very visible and high-profile activities there have been no leaks or insinuations about sexual harassment.

Cain has denied the accusations. Of course, there are sharp differences of opinion by the public whether Cain’s denial is true or false.

It will be a bumpy ride for Herman Cain this week. As this comment is being posted, his supporters are firmly behind him. Media commentators are split. The public is sharply divided.

What’s not clear is how the matters were resolved.

Were they resolved as part of routine severance agreements the employees entered when they severed their employment; or, were they resolved through settlements on liability claims?

Those are widely accepted human relations and perhaps legal distinctions. There is nothing sinister about severance agreements. But, settlements on liability claims are much different matters. 

For the media, such distinctions may not make much of a difference  in the coverage of a candidates Accusations of sexual harrasment by public officials and candidates for office go to one’s character and integrity. Such accusation usually generate a torrent of media coverage. And there has been a torrent of coverage on Cain. 

But, for the general public the distinctions may be quite significant.

Clarification of whether the matters were resolved by severance agreements or settlements could affect public opinion about Cain. Hopefully, the clarification will be reported in this news cycle while the controversy is still hot.